Larry's Virtual Table

[Brice Manuel]

I need some help.  I was wondering if somebody could please download the newest version of Larry's "Virtual Table" from this thread and email it to me at: 

*edited to remove email address*

I have tried to download the newest version, but I am unable to and I receive this message.  I have also tried to send Larry a private message to ask if he could send me the file, but I receive the same message when trying to send Larry a private message.  I am banned from downloading attachments and sending private messages.

I have been using Larry's "virtual table" for a project I am doing for a local no-kill animal shelter.  Every year I create something (an animal-themed game, a screen saver, pet photo organizer, etc.) that I donate to them and another local business takes the software and presses CDs & does the inserts and cases donates them so the shelter can sell this software during the Christmas season to help raise money for their operating expenses.

This year I am making a simple "pet medical organizer".  I am using Larry's "virtual table".  Larry has updated the "virtual table" quite a bit since the initial version I have and I need to be able to use the latest version.  Otherwise I am going to have to switch to C++ and use the old "table" control I registered several years back.  I would prefer not to have to do this as the deadline is getting closer.  There is not a lot of time left for a complete rewrite and get it done in time for the fall newsletter (which has the Christmas gifts listed for ordering) which will be going to the printers in mid-late September.

Since I can't send PMs via the PB forums, I contacted Steve with a PM via this forum several days ago begging for access to downloads.  I have received no reply, and frankly didn't expect a reply.  I am asking for help via this thread as a last resort.

Any help given will remain confidential.

[José Roca]

Done.

[José Roca]

Sorry, no luck.

- These recipients of your message have been processed by the mail server:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Failed; 5.3.4 (message too big for system)

    Remote MTA gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com: network error


- SMTP protocol diagnostic: 552-5.7.0 Our system detected an illegal attachment on your message. Please\r\n552-5.7.0 visit http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6590 to\r\n552 5.7.0 review our attachment guidelines. m72si16987753weq.132

[José Roca]

Download it from here. See attachment.

[Brice Manuel]

Ack!!  Google rejects any zip with an EXE in it.  I should have mentioned that, usually have to rename the ZIP to a PDF to get it through.

THANK YOU, JOSE!

I really appreciate it!

[Jaime de los Hoyos]

... The dreaded axe of banning finally came down?
Shame on them. They could at least have had the decency of replying to your inquiries about the ban.
My sympathies, Brice.

[Bob Zale]

Isn't that a little harsh, Jaime?  Particularly when you don't know the facts?

When a PowerBASIC Forum member makes an explicit link of another forum member (by name) to an explicit sex act, we take action.  When the degrading description was totally unprovoked, it's even worse.  When it's followed by even more unprovoked antagonism, it's worse yet.

Shame on me?  Shame on Steve?  I don't think so.  Are we expected to monitor every forum on every web site on the Internet to see if there are private messages for us?  I think not.  Yet the private message in question was sent on this forum, which Steve visits just occasionally.  This person could have sent an email to support@powerbasic.com, or to Steve's personal email, both of which are monitored closely.  He did not, even though he has used those addresses many, many times before.  He could have even used our secure FEEDBACK page to communicate, but he did not.  Do you wonder why?

One more thing.  He was not barred.  He was placed on temporary moderation until he cools down.  Moderation means his posts must be approved before they are made public.  We don't want more embarrassing nastiness.  This action is temporary, until he regains composure.  When that is clear, he will be reinstated, along with private message and other access.  Until then, each unwarranted slur delays that final goal.  Posts were approved as recently as yesterday.

Do you really believe we've done something indecent?

Best regards,

Bob Zale, President
PowerBASIC Inc.

[Jaime de los Hoyos]

  ... Wow. References to "sex acts"? In the PB forums, or here? Seems I've missed some things...

Anyway, if Brice has, er, "misbehaved", shouldn't only his posting privileges be under moderation? Yet he provided proof that he's been barred from downloading attachments. What purpose does that serve in this case? It's some form of punishment?

[Bob Zale]

Yes, Jaime, you've missed some things because we don't allow such behavior.  We try to keep it clean and friendly.

Certain restrictions serve as encouragement to act responsibly.  Sooner rather than later.  We don't reward vulgarity and vulgar behavior on our forums.  Children visit there, including some in my family.   Including Steve's children, who are interested in learning programming.

Do you really believe we are indecent?

Best regards,

Bob Zale, President
PowerBASIC

[Jaime de los Hoyos]

I still believe that, when forced to take disciplinary action against one of your customers, the decent thing would be to still allow him to access the resources available for PB in the one and only place where's possible to get them. Moderating potentially offensive posts is one thing. Barring a customer from accessing the very resources which allow him to efficiently work with your product is another.

Please note that I have nothing against protecting a community from "disruptive" members, if they arise. That's a necessity to keep the community clean, as you state. But forbidding them to access resources is more like a punishment which serves absolutely no real purpose towards keeping things clean, and may be particularly spiteful given the circumstances (besides the PB forums and José's, there are almost no other useful online resources for PB programmers; you ban a user in one (or both) of these forums, he's done for, regarding PB usage).

Then again, that's just my two cents

[Bob Zale]

One other thing, Jaime...    When a person has to be moderated several times, over a period of years, the consequences must finally be made more visible to him.  Otherwise, he just visits other related forums and weeps over the suffering he must endure.  That hurts everyone.  PowerBASIC, its employees, and our many friends and customers.  None of us need that when we're all just trying to improve our programming skills.

Please, please stop talking about "banning".  This person has not been banned.  If he had asked for a particular file in a reasonable manner (so we actually knew of the request), he would have received it.  Our goal is to make it difficult (not impossible) to obtain these files.  When the difficulty (and wasted time) becomes sufficient, he may think twice in the future.  That's our hope, anyway.

Best regards,

Bob Zale
PowerBASIC

[Brice Manuel]

Jaime:  I normally wouldn't be replying to this now, but the center I have my programming classes at is closed today due to the earthquake we had three hours ago.  Although it looks okay and no damage, I shut off the gas to be safe and they need to get an inspector out there before it can open.  The bright side is I have a day off which rarely happens.

Although the epicenter was further away, it was much worse than the one we had 13 months ago.  We live in a 55+ year old building and I made wifey get out because our building was shaking so bad.  By the time I had managed to get the cat and stick him in the cat carrier, it had stopped and it took me a while to grab him as he was pretty freaked out.  This one went on for a good bit.

... Wow. References to "sex acts"? In the PB forums, or here? Seems I've missed some things...

I can only guess what you are replying to as I have Bob on ignore on this forum.  You didn't miss much.  PB forums.  I used the "polite" version of a phrase.  The word I used is rather sterile and medical and one you would hear on a newscast.  The phrase itself could easily be said via radio without having to worry about any FCC fines or complaints being filed.  You wouldn't hear it during "prime-time" TV shows as they generally use the vulgar version of the phrase and word.  That is how benign it was.  Like I said, you didn't miss much.

... The dreaded axe of banning finally came down?

This is actually pretty routine.  Besides getting restricted from posting, you are banned from using PMs, you are banned from downloading attachments, you are even banned from using the search feature.  Heck, you are banned from seeing screen shots attached to a message.  This is why when I post a screen shot, I usually use a third party link so everybody will be able to access it. 

Anyway, if Brice has, er, "misbehaved", shouldn't only his posting privileges be under moderation? Yet he provided proof that he's been barred from downloading attachments. What purpose does that serve in this case? It's some form of punishment?

Being banned from downloading attachments really hurts everybody.  Hundreds of PB users contribute help on the PB forums and often that help includes a necessary attachment.  Besides punishing the "offender", banning people from downloading attachments punishes the "helper" as the access to their hard work is being dictated by somebody else. 

From a "moderation" standpoint, this really doesn't make sense unless you are trying to prevent your customer from actually using your product or trying to sabotage their work.  The PB forums are such that you can restrict somebody from posting and that will not interfere with their ability to actually use the product as long as they can use the search feature to search for the help they need and download attachments that contain the help they need and send a PM to the community member who contributed the help if they need any clarification.  But since you are banned from using the search feature, banned from downloading attachments, and banned from asking another member for help via PM, you really are cut off at the knees if you are using the product.

Shame on them. They could at least have had the decency of replying to your inquiries about the ban.

Steve visited this forum about an hour after I sent him the PM here, so I know he had a chance to read it.  Whether he did or not, I can't say as I do not have access to that info as I am not an admin.  Given that the time he visited was before "normal" business hours, I do wonder if he had the setting to receive an email notification of any PM as I don't usually see Steve on this forum that early in the morning.

In the past when banned, I have emailed PB and asked about being allowed access to certain downloads others have posted, but received no response.  So it was rather futile to try and contact them by the normal methods.  This was a last resort and keep from having to move to another language and do a complete rewrite mid-project.

During times of banning, I have mostly never received a response from PB about anything when I have tried to contact them about something (unless it concerns a potential order).  I know you have a kid, I am sure s/he went through the stage where they stick their fingers in their ears and walk around saying "I'm not listening to you".  It feels much like this when trying to deal with PB when you are being "punished".


*edit*   Thank you again for the help, Jose.  Perhaps it would be best to lock this now since the help has been given?

[Bob Zale]

I hate this part of my job.  It isn't fun.  But I must refute misinformation and fabrication with the truth.  I'll try to be as brief as possible.

...I used the "polite" version of a phrase.  The word I used is rather sterile...

The "quality" of the word is immaterial.  The issue was its use to describe a forum member by name.  That is vulgarity.

During times of banning, I have mostly never received a response from PB about anything when I have tried to contact them about something (unless it concerns a potential order).

This is, unfortunately, a fabrication. 

... PB when you are being "punished".

He is not being punished.  He has been given a mandatory "Time Out" to allow him to consider his position.  We require that forum members treat their friends and hosts with normal business respect.  If they violate the policy, they can expect to have ever-increasing limitations placed on their access.  We do our very best to ensure that our forums have a pleasant atmosphere, so that all of our friends and customers can receive its benefits.

At the PowerBASIC Forums, moderation is temporary and applied rarely.  After 14 years, 5000+ members, and close to 400,000 posts, moderation has been applied to less than 10 members.  It is reserved for the few occasions of necessity.

Best regards,

Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.

[Jaime de los Hoyos]

He is not being punished.  He has been given a mandatory "Time Out" to allow him to consider his position.

Come on... That's punishment, plain and simple.

In my opinion, that's something you do with a misbehaving little kid, not to a customer. In this case, "Time Out" is just an euphemism for "punishment".

One of your customers is being unpleasant to other customers? Make it so that his posts can't reach the community. That's fair. But restricting access to productive resources (which are part of why your customer chose your product, after all) serves absolutely no purpose in keeping the community clean and happy as a whole. Its only purpose would be to actively punish the "disruptive" customer.

Of course, you can manage your forum as you see fit, Bob, but let's call things by their real name, not by euphemist phrases.

Best regards!

[Bob Zale]

Hi Jaime--

We tried that.  It failed.  Why do you suppose other programming forums have permanently banned this person?  At least we keep trying?

Best regards,

Bob Zale
PowerBASIC