Any news from Phoenix 3?

[José Roca]

Last news are from 29 March 2011.
http://www.phnxthunder.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=739

[Theo Gottwald]

Btw. Jose, did you tell your friends in Spain that they will have to make monthly payments to germany from next year?
We as the big "saver-of-the-euro" country deserve any amount of what we saved  .
If you don't believe me, ask Frl. Merkel.

About Phoenix 3:
Actually i am not sure if dominic has the right focus.
He is optimizing Phoenix 3 for a codelength of 500.000 lines and as a result it will not be ready until PB 11 is out possibly.
But who really needs that? One or two of the users.

Thats a mistake good programmers often make, they make their own tool like it would be for themselves.
Instead it would be beter optimized for majority of users.

And 80% of PB Users are beginners and have no such large projects. But need - for example - a extensive library (like Jose's) and a accompanied documentation.

I like the idea from Paul to generally use Jose's includes for new Firefly version.
Also i assume that any other good Visual Designer will just also do that and choose Jose's includes and hopefully also Jose's Librearies.

[José Roca]

 
I don't owe a cent to anybody, so don't expect any payment from me.

[Dominic Mitchell]

About Phoenix 3:
Actually i am not sure if dominic has the right focus.
He is optimizing Phoenix 3 for a codelength of 500.000 lines and as a result it will not be ready until PB 11 is out possibly.
But who really needs that? One or two of the users.

You could be right, but it is certainly not because I am optimizing Phoenix 3.0 for large code sizes.
The ability to handle large code files has been a feature of Phoenix since the first version.

The whole point of this ability is so that IntelliSense would not be sluggish.
IntelliSense in Phoenix 3.0 is modelled after IntelliSense in VisualBASIC.
Support for IntelliSense in all products for PowerBASIC I have seen to date is very minimal.

I like the idea from Paul to generally use Jose's includes for new Firefly version.
Also i assume that any other good Visual Designer will just also do that and choose Jose's includes
and hopefully also Jose's Librearies.

If I were to do that, I would be stuck with a tool I could not use. In my opinion, it is better to give the
programmer the ability to choose the includes.
In Phoenix3.0, you can add the same compiler to the list of compilers an unlimited number of times with
different configurations(inlcudes etc.).  There is a duplicate test in Phoenix 2.0 that prevents this.
For example, I have configured Phoenix 3.0 so that I can choose from a list of 11 PB compilers(5.0 to 10.xx).
Some configurations use Jose's includes, some use includes modified by me and others use the originals that
were shipped with the compilers.

[Peter Weis]

Hi Dominic,

What it helps who you say what Phoenix is 3.0, the one who is not Phoenix 3.0, and I can annoy me with Phoenix 2.0 and Unicode!
regards Peter

[Eros Olmi]

Btw. Jose, did you tell your friends in Spain that they will have to make monthly payments to germany from next year?
We as the big "saver-of-the-euro" country deserve any amount of what we saved  .
If you don't believe me, ask Frl. Merkel.

The only truth is that Germany, France, Dutch and English banks are full of toxic titles and now they are trying to share that toxicity all over EU and possibly even outside.
But this cannot be told.

[Theo Gottwald]

The only truth is that Germany, France, Dutch and English banks are full of toxic titles and now they are trying to share that toxicity all over EU and possibly even outside.
But this cannot be told.

Yesterday in the US TV a man said that Frl. Merkel is now the new leader of europe.
In that case she will try that all people pay so much taxes (to US ... finally) like we.

@Dominic, Phoenix 2 had no problem with its Edit-Control. It was definitely fast enough.
Intellisense is a nice thing, Jose's Editor has some kind of it.

If you as a "one man show" plan to compete with VS, of course you will need a lot of time.
But then, when will it be ready?
Who can document all the features properly for beginners?
Documentation for Phoenix1 and 2 was never complete.

We as programmer (including me) like to take new challenges.
"I can make this thing work much faster".  We use weeks for that because this is our challenge.
At the end this special feature that took a lot of time may not be really whats important in a marketplace.
It's a common phenomen - men love to challenge themselves. Me too.

I believe that if you woul make a strategic product planing for your product (target the market not the personal challenge), and develope by this plan,
you could be already on the market and have the right features. And also earn something already.

And maybe work on Phoenix 4.

The case of Phoenix, Phoenix 2 and possibly Phoenix 3 is a good example to me for "lost chances" where an
exceptionally talented programmer sets the wrong focus from a marketing standpoint and comes late to market,
and targets the wrong people possibly.

If you want to discuss your features list with us, we can do it publicly here in the forum,
we can do it via e-mail, or you can mail to Eros. I know hin, he will give you good advice whats needed in the PB Market and how you can strategically "step-by-step" bring your product forward
and finally get it to market.

About the include files, so far i have understand Jose, there is no need for the original PB Include files, at least for new projects,
And the includion of Jose's CWindow Class in the code generator - i believe this could save you work.

Phoenix was my favorite VD that time, because it was really good in Visual Design, even TAB-Control could be visually designed.
It was the tool (and many use it still today) to most quickly get things done.

Many people would buy "Phoenix 3" today if it would be available.
Even if it had been just an "PB 10 adapted version of Phoenix 2".

What are the features that people really expect?

Actually if i make a new Project, i tend to FF 3.5 because it includes Jose's new technology and it will result in very compact code and a single EXE file.
In Phoenix the Layout Manager was in a DLL. In FF 3.5 i have no need for a DLL and it also resizes forms and controls.

For Projects that can grow large (with DLL's) I could also use EZ GUI if i need those special features in there.
It has quite some very special functions and Elements not found anywhere.

Looking at Chris, he's just done the opposite (no intellisense but intellisell) and did not even try to include a Text-control in EZGUI 5 for Editiing.
You have to use the PB or another available Editor. As a result he was first on the market!

So the question is, "Whats missing in the PB Market?".
Where should be the focus?

Is it a VS IDE (Clone) that will be perfect for people using VS to change to PB?
How many can you make change to PB 10?
Is it really a choice?

For me at the end are two things important in a Visual Designer and one thing is that i relly gives a Bonus Point.

1. The extensive Library with helper files and a good doku. Because it just helps saving time. Phoenix and Phoenix 2 were never complete on these.
2. The result. How does the resulting program it look, at different resolutions?

And the Point is: Generally including Jose's technology is definitely a Plus for me in any new product.

Because of the result:
We still not have a tool that makes really eyecatching GUI surfaces like in Apple Apps. Just by using Drag'n Drop.
Because mostly programmers are not also good graphic designers.

At the End, any simple form, no matter which Visual designer was used, may just look just the same like WinXp.

Except FF 3.5 because its results are DPI-aware because of Jose's CWindow class. This is the place where a new product could also collect points.
Also EZGUI has some unique graphical elements, even if they look rather cheap to professional designed elements.
What will Phoenix offer?

Will it make that exceptional Text-Control also available for its users for their own editing programms?
All VD's only have the Richedit control. But none of them uses it himself.

These are my points, aside from the 500.000 Lines optimization.
Let me keep this discussion open to others. What would you expect from a new VD?

[Patrice Terrier]

For Dominic, the good question to ask himself, is:
would i make a living from the extra work to make a version 3, and does there is enough room for several addon providers on this market?

[Peter Weis]

Hello Patrice,
Whom he brings out the version 3 is not, he should at least change the version 2, so that it is to work with PB 10 not much that he must change. There are only minor

regards Peter

[Theo Gottwald]

Not really.
But i am good hope this way we can show dominic our interest.
This should help dominic to stay motivated and keep his own level of perfection on a reachable value.
That however spreads over the full product (including the help and the library).

For Dominic, the good question to ask himself, is:
would i make a living from the extra work to make a version 3, and does there is enough room for several addon providers on this market?

I do not believe anybody can live from the PB Market unless he lives in a country like Mexico or Namibia  .
Or he would take significant money. The market is just not large and the people often like do things themselves.
One good thing about PowerBasic is, that Bob keeps it somehow "old fashioned" about how it looks.
This makes sure that it will stay our secret weapon with just those users who already know it for long year.
And they are not really a large market that will pay out for a VS Competitor. However i believe that the same is true for other "Small Basics" like PureBasic also. In a direct compare the PowerBasic Customers are even the better ones. Selling a niche product like this to mostly private customers does not look to me like a big bussiness. Having said this, i personally believe that Bob makes his product because he loves it, not mainly for the money.